Dennis Kucinich Interview
November 25th, 2007
We have been told that war is inevitable but I reject that. Peace is inevitable if you’re willing to work for it. I have an approach that rejects war as an instrument of policy and says that we have to work at the world community; have open dialogue, diplomacy, and reverses this thinking that says that we somehow have the right for preemptive strikes; for unilateral behavior. We have to cooperate and when we do that we can make America safer.
I reject war as an instrument of policy. The fact that neo-conservatives were able to advance their agenda for unilateralism, preemption and first strikes as a way to literally steal over a trillion dollars from the American people by forcing increased military spending on wars that were based on lies. I’m saying that there’s a new doctrine under a Kucinich presidency of strength through peace of adherence to international law, diplomacy, open dialogue, of creating a whole new direction for America so the militarization of our society ceases. That we take America in a new direction where we actually have a social agenda – which is now being ruined because of the tremendous amount of money that goes for military build up and for war.
...no nation has the right to aggression. America spend more than the rest of the word put together for our so called defense. We have really taken a path that has undermined America’s security by acts of war and also by driving ourselves into debt we have lacked the ability to be able to meet our domestic agenda.
...the Vice President should be impeached for violating his oath of office to the preserve, protected and defend the constitution of the United States. President should be impeached as well. I have offered articles of impeachment with respect of Vice President specifically for his role in lying to help to take this county to the war against Iraq and beating the drums of war against Iran The president should be held accountable in a much broader way. This county’s constitution is the basis of our democratic way of life. And yet we have an administration that has ignored it.
I went to a Dennis Kucinich house party four years ago in Cornish, New Hampshire just before the state primary. It was an exciting event. The Ohio Congressman talked about everything that the other candidates wouldn’t. The ruthless power of modern corporations, the lies surrounding our war in Iraq, the loss of jobs and the exploitation of workers due to poorly written treaties and the possibility of retooling American society to make it greener, and leaner.
The next day I read an article in the Eagle Times which was 50-60% fabrication written by someone who hadn't even been there. When I called the paper and talked to the writer/editor he was completely unapologetic. He made snide remarks about Mr. Kucinich and basically said that he would write what he liked. This has been a problem; Dennis trying to overcome the media's reluctance to give him, his ideas and his record a fair shake.
Being given short shrift by the media and not being a taken seriously by many voters because he, “has little chance of winning the nomination let alone the presidency,” has not discouraged him. He believes if he can just get people to hear his ideas about a safer America and world the poll numbers would naturally turn around. If voters in New Hampshire would vote their hearts and not their fears, or their 'second best' choices he could surprise the media and go on across the rest of the country.
On Sunday, November 25th, Dennis Kucinich was kind enough to talk to me for a few moments at his headquarters in Keene, New Hampshire. We then continued our conversation as we rode up to a 10:00 AM house meeting in Acworth,. Accompanying him was his intelligent and beautiful wife Elizabeth, who added greatly to our conversation.
The Acworth meeting was well attended and Dennis brought tears to eyes when he declared that, “war in not inevitable. Peace is inevitable but it’s going to take work.” That’s what we New England folk like to hear. There’s a job to be done. It’s doable, so let’s get to work.
That’s the way we feel about his campaign: It’s doable. Let’s not prove the cynics right again. Let’s not let the media and corporatate interests decide what is possible and who our candidate should be.
Read this interview with Dennis Kucinich and then vote for the best candidate.
November, 25 th 2007
W. How did you get involved in the American political system and how do you keep your faith in it?
D. I became involved in politics when I was twenty years old, so my career goes back forty years now, and I got involved in politics after I heard John Kennedy’s inaugural, when he said a torch had been passed to a new generation of Americans and went on to say “Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.” Like many young Americans at the time I felt a calling. I decided that the instinct I had from a very early age could be applied in public life. When I was a sophomore in high school I wrote an autobiographical essay where I said my goal in life would be to have a life in politics. When I look back at the paper – which I have at home –the next line said “And I’m aiming for the top.” I had put in an insert between “the” and “top” – that said “very.” I had an awareness from an early age of what I wanted to do; that my life would be about service to people.
W. The second part of that question is, “How do you keep your faith in it?”
D. My faith is in people. Systems change and they need to change, but the capacity for things to change depends on the awareness of the public. When people are given the facts about what is going on they generally will make the right decision. I’ve always had an abiding faith in the people; whether it was at the level of a city ward, or the people of this country, or the people of this world. But this is a time when leadership is necessary to expand the range of options our society has, because our options have become too limited. We have been told that war is inevitable but I reject that. Peace is inevitable if you’re willing to work for it. I have an approach that rejects war as an instrument of policy and says that we have to work at the world community; have open dialogue, diplomacy, and reverse this thinking that says that we somehow have the right to preemptive strikes; to unilateral behavior. We have to cooperate and when we do that we can make America safer.
W. Could you tell me about the most difficult time and the most rewarding time in your political career?
D. It would be the same thing. The effort to save Cleveland’s municipal electric system from a giant utility monopoly. In 1976 Cleveland’s municipal electric system was sold. I was a clerk of Cleveland’s courts at the time (the second highest elected office in the city). When the mayor and the council decided they were going to sell the electric system, a system which provided cheap power to at least a third of the city, and kept taxes low by serving city facilities, I said, “This is wrong. We have a right to our own electric system.” This was a system, a city-owned electric system, that had been founded at close to the turn of the century by then-Mayor Tomas Johnson, and I felt I had an obligation to stand up for the public interest and say you shouldn’t be selling this system. Even though it had already been sold and even though my top advisor said, “Look there is nothing you can do about it. Forget it,” I saw a different path and so I set out upon that path. I filed petitions to block the sale and ran for mayor on a promise that if elected I would cancel the sale of the light system. I won the election, canceled the sale, and the story just started there. The banks which had business interests in the private utility that wanted the monopoly wanted the takeover of the public utility. The banks then told me on December 15 th 1978 that unless I sold this municipal utility to the private utility, in which the banks had a business interest, the banks would not renew the city’s credit on a loan I had not even taken out. This was my moment to decide who I was, to decide why I was in politics, to decide if I had the ability to take a stand. I knew if I said, “Yes,” the banks would promise to give the city $50 million dollars in additional credit and if I said, “No,” they would throw the city into default. I knew people wouldn’t understand why we would go into default.
On that day in December, in a boardroom, a banker is giving me his ultimatum. While he was talking to me my thoughts are going back to an apartment house where my parents are counting pennies on an old metal topped table. They were counting pennies so that they could pay a utility bill. I was sitting in a boardroom with a banker but I could still hear those pennies dropping on the table that my parents had been counting 25 years earlier. I could still hear those pennies drop. And I thought, “It really means something what people pay for electricity. It really means something to people, in this situation to have a mayor that will stand up for them no matter what.” So I said, “No” to that banker. It put the city of Cleveland into default but the bank didn’t get the electric system. Fifteen years later the city of Cleveland announced the largest expansion of any municipal electric system in the country. That was the point at which they realized I had taken a stand which saved the people of Cleveland hundreds of millions of dollars on their electric bills and saved the taxpayers a huge amount of money on providing electricity to city facilities. So that was the toughest time in my career. I lost the election in 1979; I lost the job I loved doing; I lost this connection of service to the people. It took me fifteen years to make a solid political comeback. But I did. In 1994 I was elected to State Senate with a motto, “Because he was right.” People recognized at that point that I had done the right thing under enormous pressure. Two years later I was elected to the House of Representatives with the motto, “Light up Congress,” which was symbolic of the fact that I had kept the lights going in the city of Cleveland. That was the toughest period but it was also the most rewarding because I stood by the public interest and I did the right thing.
W. I know many who are so cynical about the system of electing a president that they plan on voting “none of above” by not participating. Do you still believe that someone who voices positions not favorable to those of big business can get elected to high office?
D. Well of course! My candidacy gives all those who have been concerned about the non-responsiveness of the system someone to vote for. I am the one who will challenge the system, challenge these moneyed interests that stop us from have the kind of health care that Americans need, that keep us in the war, and that have us tied to oil. I am the one person who can break the hold that those interest groups have on our country. People don’t have to vote ‘none of the above’ any more. They can vote Kucinich and that will mean that the American people will have a true representative in the White House.
E. (Dennis’s wife Elizabeth then added...) People find they want to drop out of the system because they don’t have a choice – but that really just strengthens the existing system, and it does nothing for them. It’s really time for people to understand what democracy is - it’s about full participation; it’s about if you don’t see someone there who’s representing you, finding someone, fielding them, becoming part of the political process. The Kucinich campaign is just the first phase of electing someone who truly is representative of the mainstream positions of the American people, not the corporations. Beyond that we look for a long term trajectory of a full democracy movement that will sweep this country.
W. I recently watched the movie Why we Fight and it made a strong impression on me. In Japan the Zai Batsu (the military-industrial complex) took over and ran the country from the 1930’s until the end of the Second World War. There was no way for the Japanese people to gain any control of their government until the US came in at the end of the war. Do you think the military-industrial machine has usurped the power and that only those who support their agenda will be funded and thus anointed ‘serious candidates’ by the media?
D. That is one of the most profound questions I’ve heard a journalist ask in this campaign. Dwight Eisenhower in his valedictory speech about the impact the military-industrial complex could have on undermining our democracy said, “Beware of the military industrial complex!” Here was a man who was a General in the Army; and someone who had been president of the United States and who was in this unique position to see the impact that these defense contractors could have on public policy. Again I am the one candidate who can break the hold that these interest groups have on our country. I reject war as an instrument of policy; the fact that neo-conservatives were able to advance their agenda for unilateralism, preemptive and first strikes as a way to literally steal over a trillion dollars from the American people by forcing increased military spending on wars that are based on lies. I’m saying that there’s a new doctrine under a Kucinich presidency, of strength through peace; of adherence to international law, of diplomacy and open dialogue; of creating a whole new direction for America so the militarization of our society ceases...that we take America in a new direction where we actually have a social agenda...which is now being ruined because of the tremendous amount of money that goes for military build-up and for war.
W. According to the Defense Department’s annual Base Structure Report for fiscal year 2003, which itemizes foreign and domestic U.S. military real estate, the Pentagon currently owns or rents 702 overseas bases in about 130 countries and has another 6,000 bases in the United States and its territories. What role would the military have in a Kucinich Administration and would there be a ‘peace dividend’?
D. Well we have a right to defend ourselves. It is a right that is assumed in the preamble to the Constitution. It is also a right accorded in international law in the UN Charter, Article 51 Every nation has a right to self defense. However no nation has the right to aggression. America spends more than the rest of the word put together for our so-called defense. We have really taken a path that has undermined America’s security by acts of war, and also by driving ourselves into debt we have lost the ability to be able to meet our domestic agenda. Here’s where the peace dividend comes from: America will come home. We will systematically begin to close bases around the world because America doesn’t need to be in all these countries. America needs to be in Louisiana. America needs to be in New Hampshire. America needs to be in Iowa. America needs to be in every state in the Union. America needs to be in our schools and in our housing, and in our health care systems. We don’t need America all over the world. We need to come home. A Kucinich presidency will have a strong military; we’ll be able to defend our country but we’ll have to recognize that this projection of force around the world is a relic of a by-gone era. We need international cooperation; that is the path to security, (economic security and peace security). There will be a peace dividend and it will be through a shift in our military strategy where we will be strong enough to defend this country but we are not going to have this global presence that prepares for war and generally brings us war because it undermines security.
W. Gasoline price are about $.90 higher per gallon than they were just a year ago and there is no sign this will turn around. Many people believe that the time of cheap oil is past and that from now as the demand keeps on rising and production levels fall we shall see economic recession/depression and oil wars. What are your thoughts on our present energy situation and what do you believe is the best way forward?
D. We are already in a recession. We’ve had two flat quarters of non-growth and we already have a war for oil. That is what Iraq is all about and that's what beating the drums against Iran is all about. We need to move away from reliance on oil. In the Kucinich presidency we mean just that. It means that we have that called a ‘Works Green’ administration where the government becomes the engine of sustainability in each and every department. We’ll move the energy department away from subsidizing oil, coal and nuclear energy, and toward subsidizing wind, solar and green energy and alternative energy technologies. Imagine this: Imagine manufacturing, installing and maintaining millions of wind and solar micro-technologies in tens of millions of homes, dramatically reducing home energy requirements for Americans, reducing our carbon footprints and saving people a lot of money on their utility bills. I see a role for government in shifting our reliance on oil and creating government departments of transportation and mass-transit. Promote mass transit and you save energy. In agriculture, promote local farmers getting their products to local markets. In that way you save energy again. We need to foster a tremendous amount of investment in alternative energy technologies and in the science that will bring them forward. We can shorten the development curve and enable these products to be brought forward, not only to create new jobs but to take us way from reliance on oil. We have to do this not only for the practical political economy; we have to do this to protect our planet. We see that increasing greenhouse gases attributable to carbon-based energy technologies are causing ice sheets to melt, raising sea level – our whole planet is threatened. So you see the link between global warring and global warming. I am the one person running for president who gets it and who is determined to take this country in a new direction towards the greening of America.
W. Are you prepared to tell people they are also going to have to reduce their consumption?
D. You know what? This idea that the public has to sacrifice comes from the people who have a limited understanding of what our potential is. We need to be wise, and I am prepared to be an American president who challenges Americans to be efficient in their use of energy, to conserve energy, conserve water. We should do to that, but if we tell people there not going to be enough energy that assumes that we continue to have current rates of usage, which are not the most efficient. Imagine a president who brings this country together in the common cause of energy conservation and energy efficiency, and who helps provide incentives to make sure we can develop these new technologies that will make it possible for us to meet our needs far into the future. I am very hopeful for America’s future as long as we tap our tremendous creative abilities, our ingenuity, our engineering, and our scientific know-how. We haven’t even begun to do that because the oil companies do everything they can to fight the introduction of any technologies that would in any way impact their profits. Because I am not tied to these industries that are ruining our globe I am in the position to be able to lead America in a direction of real sustainability and of prosperity. The two should go hand in hand, actually.
W. During the past six years the Bush administration has instituted many new policies of monitoring citizens, imprisoning and interrogating “suspects.” In doing so they have written new laws, revised or revoked long-standing laws, overridden laws they did not find to their liking and flouted international agreements and conventions. What is your reading of the assault on the Constitution and habeas corpus, and the abrogation of international treaties such as the Geneva Conventions?
D. My reading is that the Vice President should be impeached for violating his oath of office to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. The President should be impeached as well. I have offered articles of impeachment with respect to the Vice President specifically for his role in lying to help to take this county to the war against Iraq, and beating the drums of war against Iran. The President should be held accountable in a much broader way. This country’s constitution is the basis of our democratic way of life. And yet we have an administration that has ignored it. As President Kucinich what I’ll do is to reinstate the full effect of the Bill of Rights, end policies of eavesdropping and wire tapping, which are violations of Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure; and stop the government policy of gathering people’s health records, educational records, and financial records. Government will no longer have that role in the lives of the people. Government will be there to support people’s health, education, and create jobs. We will get government out of people’s living rooms and out of their bedrooms. It is important for people to know that I am the one person running for the president who says yes - the Vice President and the President should be impeached. They lied to take us to the war. The President has been responsible for overseeing the structure that has undermined our civil liberties. He must be held accountable. If you want to be a president of US then you should show when you’re a candidate who's ready to protect the Constitution. And I am only the candidate who challenges this administration upfront. People will know that as president I will be the one who will defend the Constitution.
And one of my first acts in office will be to get the Justice Department and federal courts to overturn the Patriot Act.
W. How is RH333 going? (This is a bill introduced by Dennis Kucinich to impeach Vide president Dick Cheney) Are you gaining support?
D. Yes. One more comment: Keep in mind that I am the only person running for president who actually voted against the Patriot Act. At least some of the candidates are actually proud of their support of it. I think if you are going to be a Democrat, be a Democrat. Stand for the Constitution. A lot of the Republicans stand for the Constitution. Why can‘t Democrats do that?
As far as HR333 is concerned; when I introduced it in April support grew slowly. (We now have 23 Congress members who support it). However, when I brought the articles of impeachment to the floor of the house, under privilege resolution, more and more members understood the importance of calling the Vice President to account. When there was a motion by the Democratic leadership to table the resolution, 86 members of Congress voted against tabling, which means they felt the debate was warranted.
I think the American people are to starting to contact their members of Congress. If they haven’t they should. Tell each member of Congress that our Constitution is at risk and our democratic way of life is at stake. It is time the Congress did its job as a co-equal branch of government. This is not up to Democratic leadership to decide on its own. Saying impeachment is off the table is equivalent to licensing the abrogation of democratic principles; it is equivalent to licensing an assault on the Constitution.
W. Thomas Jefferson believed that to have a successful democracy you had to have an educated citizenry. How do you see the present state of our educational system and what would you like to change?
D. Our educational system needs to be dramatically reformed, to make it possible for every child ages 3, to 5 to have access to full-time day care so children can learn reading skills, social skills, language, arts and music, and to better prepare them for a life full of learning. We need more money in elementary and secondary education. I have proposed a 15% reduction in the bloated Pentagon budget. The money would go instead to universal preschool and kindergarten programs, as well as putting money into elementary and secondary education. I would also have money available for a new program to make it possible for every youngster in America to go to a two year or a four year college, tuition-free, in exchange for giving two years of service at a local, state or federal level in the civic life of the community; working in hospitals and nursing homes, as tutors or mentors, working as teachers or serving in the uniformed military. There are so many ways we can serve. We want to give young people a chance to do that but we want to make sure that they are well educated and prepared for the future. This could only be a benefit to the entire society. I believe America will take that direction andunder a Kucinich administration, I will help it take that direction.
W. The dollar is falling rapidly, the international and federal debt is growing, very little is produced in this country and even service-based and white-collar jobs are being outsourced. Money is being made through investment and sales but great blocks of the citizenry are being left behind; the rich are getting even richer while many struggle to receive basic health care, a decent education and to keep their homes warm in the winter. How can the economic challenges of maintaining the middle class, keeping a manufacturing base and making local economies stronger be met?
D. One of my first acts in office will be to cancel NAFTA, get out of WTO, and to have trade-based workers’ rights, human rights, and environmental quality principles. This is the only thing we can do to try to stop this race to the bottom and protect our manufacturing jobs. We’ll have a new manufacturing policy that will enable us to reclaim the manufacturing potential that America has always had. We have to make things in order to have democracy. We exported a lot of jobs because of these trade agreements. That is why I am going to get out of those trade agreements and renegotiate them so that the race to the bottom ends, and American jobs are not only protected but maintained and improved. Imagine an expansion of industry. That is the direction I want to go in. I am fed up with the contraction of industry, the loss of well-paying jobs, that helped to create the middle class, to places where workers do not have any rights, are making next to nothing and are living in horrible conditions.We are in a position where we know that if we take corrective measures we can strengthen the America economy, improve the value of the dollar by improving our profile with respect to our the balancing of our accounts, stop building further debt, increasing the productivity of our economy, and taking us in the direction of peace.
W. You are a vegan and it seems that your own personal moral codes have much to do with your political policies. When should a leader use his beliefs to color his decisions and how important to you is the concept of ‘separation of church and state’?
D. Separation of church and state is mandatory in the democratic society. That is what our First Amendment is all about. But I don’t believe that the founders ever intended for the separation of church and state in America to mean separation from spiritual values. If you look at the Declaration of Independence, it is a profoundly spiritual document that deals with the primacy of moral reasoning. We need to always have the capacity for moral reasoning. I don’t tell people how they have to live. We just need to live by our Constitution. I don’t tell people what they should eat; people should eat what ever they want that can provide them with the health they need. But I can, as an example, demonstrate that adherence to the law, adherence to the Constitution is the path towards democracy. I can demonstrate with my own dietary choices, I have been able to achieve a degree of health that most people my age couldn’t even dream of. So being a leader is about leading. It’s about showing the potential of new directions. Today we have leaders who have misled us and put us on a path to ruin. I think that America deserves much better that what it is getting and we deserve to reconnect with the basic values of all people in this country, with all the citizens who believe that America has a benign destiny, and want to see a leader who will connect with them with this destiny.
Why We Fight (2005) is a documentary film directed by Eugene Jarecki about the United States’ relationship with war.